Timothy: We’re continuing our discussion of likable legalism and the fact that Timothy of the New Testament went straight to hell.
Intro: Welcome to the Consider Podcast where we turn our minds to consider wisdom, madness and folly. Join the host Timothy and Jacob on a quest to have God enlighten the mind according to verse 25 of Ecclesiastes chapter 7. So, I turned my mind to understand. To investigate and to search out wisdom and the scheme of things and to understand the stupidity of wickedness and the madness of folly. Ecclesiastes 72:5. The Consider Podcast examining today’s events and Paulorrow’s realities at www.consider.info.
Timothy: How’s it going this morning, Jacob?
Jacob: It’s going good.
Timothy: Anything you want to say about the opening there? I bet you didn’t know that Timothy of the New Testament. Timothy, not me Timothy went to hell.
Jacob: I did not know this.
Timothy: Yep, Jesus Christ according to scripture according to what we’re going to look at. Gonna be easily prove that Timothy cut himself off from Jesus Christ. Let’s go to Galatians chapter 5 verse 1. That’s one reason that everybody likes legalism. It has built into itself righteousness. That’s one of the first evil fruits of legalism. You have these principles, these ideas, these things sat down and I don’t care whether it’s how to prosper with money or be a good steward or prayer principles or whatever you want to go down through. Principles allow us to control it and it builds in self-righteousness because we’re able to live it. That’s why we like our legalism. Let’s go to Galatians 5:1. What does it say there? “It is for freedom that Christ has set us free”, right? So, we’re free from legalism free from the law, right? “Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by yoke of slavery”. Let’s do that. Verse 2, what does Paul write there? Jacob, read verse 2.
Jacob: “Mark my words”.
Timothy: Hey, hang on there. You knew I was going to interrupt you. “Mark my words”. He wants us to note of this, doesn’t he?
Jacob: Yes, it is.
Timothy: If they had New Testament highlighters back in the New Testament Day, it had been highlighted. Alright, I’ll try not to interrupt you. Verse 2.
Jacob: “Mark my words. I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all”.
Timothy: No value. That’s a pretty stern warning, right? Yes, it is. Clearly, Paul did not believe in one saved always saved. This one passage proves that. Otherwise, this is not possible why you bothering to write to the Galatians about this if your salvation is always secure? That’s a nice subpoint. “Mark my words”, I Paul, personally, I’m in your faith. Me, the preacher, the apostle, called by God. Jesus Christ appeared to me on the road Damascus. “I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value, zero, none to you at all on any level”. Kinda clear, right?
Timothy: Was if that weren’t enough, verse 3 says, “Again, I, Paul, declare to every man, every man. Everybody that’s a man who lets himself be circumcised that he’s obligated to obey the whole law”. Verse 4, “You who are trying to be justified by law”, and we’ve been looking at what legalism and law is, “have been alienated from Christ. You have fallen away from grace”. Pretty strong words, right?
Timothy: What does verse 4 say again that what’s the consequences of allowing yourself to be circumcised?
Jacob: You’d be alienated from Christ.
Timothy: And you’d fall away from grace. Let’s go to Acts chapter 16 verse 1. Because Paul we’re looking at scriptures. Scripture says it right? Income paper. It’s there. It’s all down. He wrote that with the strongest words possible that I can kind of imagine in scripture at the moment, right? So, we go to Acts chapter 16 verse 1. Look at what Paul does. Paul out of selfish ambition for his own ministry and fear of man will violate what he just wrote or not violate really, he will ensure that Timothy goes to hell. Acts 16:1. |He came to derby and then to Lystra, where a disciple named Timothy lived, whose mother was a Jewish and a believer, but whose father was a Greek. The brothers at Lystra and Iconium spoke well of him”. Now look what happens in verse 3. Are you ready for it, Jacob?
This is like sad news. Verse 3, “Paul wanted to take him along on the journey, so he circumcised him because of the Jews”. What did Paul just write in Galatians?
Jacob: That if you’re circumcised, you alienate yourself from Christ.
Timothy: That’s right and not only that on the servants, does it look like Paul’s like fear of man? Why are you compromising? Why are you circumcising? Why are you going into this situation? When it’s very clear, you yourself wrote Paul with your own hand and with the strongest of admonishment that if you let yourself be circumcised. You are alienated from Jesus Christ. You have fallen from grace and then here we go. What do we find? For the sake of selfish ambition, it’s very clear from looking at scripture. Is it not Jacob that out of selfish ambition, Paul want to come along. He want to be approved by man. He wanted to work her for his own selfish benefit. So, he circumcised Timothy knowing full well that Timothy would then at that moment be alienated from Jesus Christ.
Jacob: Well, scripture doesn’t say that he did it out of selfish ambition.
Timothy: Well, it’s very clear if he wrote what he wrote in Galatians with those strong words. What other motivation is there? Was he just being dumb then?
Jacob: No, here’s not.
Timothy: I may not be right. I may not be right on the evilness of what’s going on here, Jacob, but then what was the motive?
Jacob: I don’t know. We have to keep reading, I guess.
Timothy: Okay. Verse 4. “As they travel from town to town, they delivered the decision reached by the apostles and elders in Jerusalem for the people to obey”. Verse 5 says, “So the churches were strengthened in the faith and grew daily in numbers”. Alright, all of this is just a lesson to show us how dangerous legalism is. Of course, Timothy’s in heaven. He was a faithful servant. Of course, Paul was full of the Holy Spirit when he was circumcised. It was God’s will but how then do we take these two passages which are definitely diametrically opposed to each other. Are they not?
Timothy: Isn’t this, you know, I always kind of laugh at people. Well, there’s contradictions in the Bible and then the ones they offer me are so lame. This is a nice deep one. If you want to cause your Christian neighbor problem sling this into the conversation. However, there is of course an answer but is this not a prime example of where we can wind up with legalism.
Jacob: Yes, very much so.
Timothy: Any thoughts on, I know this is a little early in the morning for this kind of wordplay but any thought you have?
Jacob: Well, and I was going to say that the legalism can go either way. So, but it’s a prime example of how people can swing either way. So, people will read in Galatians, oh well then you we should be circumcised at all like even today. People, no, no circumcision, zero. And then, you can have in Acts the example someone who is pro circumcision general and so they’re like oh see it’s in the Bible. It’s in the New Testament. It’s not just an Old Testament thing therefore I’m going to do it. So, obviously yes, people and that’s what people do nowadays they just cherry pick the stuff that they want to live forming their own legalism. Well, this is what the Bible says. So, I will obey it versus actually trying.
Timothy: I without actually really understanding what scripture saying.
Timothy: I know what you’re saying you get to this point you go, okay, how do, the whole purpose of this this exercise here is to exasperate us.
Timothy: That’s why I word it the way I did and somebody’s going to quote me out of context but whatever. The idea was for us to just kind of throw our hands up. Okay, well then how do we understand the nature between law, legalism, and falling away from Jesus Christ and yet Paul seeming to violate his own principles, his own ideas. God wants us to be exasperated because we’re not able and this is what’s going to step us beyond the law. You see, the reason people want principles is we can them, we can write them down, we can understand them, we can kind of grow with them, and we can kind of change as we want to go. They create a laziness within us. That’s why you go in the Christian bookstores and it’s one book after another book or one sermon after another sermon on how to live these Godly principles or to be holy or to be righteous and it’s going, no, there is only the cross of Jesus Christ. And it’s weakness and I’m trying to give us an example here of what happens when we go down this rabbit hole of legalism and it can be the legalism like you were talking about that you like that legalism. Each person has their own. To the Baptist would be asked Jesus in your heart to the church of Christ, to be water baptized and then to other people going to go through this catechism. Each has their likable legalism but they’re just as much in errors if I were to lay down what Paul said in a legalistic fashion and totally miss what God is meaning and saying. Anything on that?
Jacob: No, go ahead.
Timothy: Alright. What we’re trying to do is Hosea chapter 10 verse 12. Go ahead and go to that Jacob and I’ll have you read that. Hosea chapter 10 verse 12. And I’ve got way too much to go through today but we can’t go to part 3, part 4, part 5. This thing could continue on. So, when it ends, it ends. Read Hosea chapter 10 verse 12 there Jacob.
Jacob: “Sow for yourselves righteousness. Reap the fruit of unfailing love and break up your unplowed ground. For it is time to seek the Lord until he comes and showers righteousness on you”.
Timothy: What we’re talking about or what I’m discussing is plowing up unplowed ground. This exercise this discussion is meant to shake us up to go okay then what’s the answer and how do we get there? Thoughts on that?
Jacob: Yeah, let’s get there.
Timothy: Okay, we’ll kind of keep going. Let’s go to first Timothy 1:8 and answer the whole legalistic question. So clearly, it’s not obedience that’s legalism. That’s not the measure. You can’t just look at another person or another church and say, well, because they do that, they’re legalistic. One of the reasons we like principles is that we don’t think of them as laws if somebody agrees with us. We need to step out outside of ourselves and let God show us what are the laws and the principles and these nice, comfortable, likable concepts in Jesus Christ that we love and instead give us that which will deliver us from that enslavement to law. And we’ll look at that here in a moment, but first Timothy 1:8. “We know that the law is good if one uses it properly”.
Legalism at its essence is an improper use of the word. So, you have, there are I know last time in our last show you were frustrated because there are laws and there are principles and there are kind of legal things set down and very direct things right Jacob?
Timothy: And that’s not to do away with those. Jesus said to the Pharisees you should do all these things while doing these things also over here. We’re not saying that there aren’t solid things in Jesus Christ. But it’s how the law or how the legalism or how the ink on paper is put to use. First Timothy 1:8. “We know the law is good if one uses it properly”. And that’s a big key. Remember I’m sure you haven’t forgotten the hate crime that we went through Jacob.
Timothy: They had all kinds of laws that they were supposedly following but they weren’t using them properly. It was used for only the power of the state. Every judge, every prosecutor, every policeman thinks their only job is not the truth or administering justice. They really believe, live, and act and understand within themselves that their only goal is to preserve the power of the state. And if that means cheating, cheating. If that means using the law improperly, they’ll do that. Right Jacob, we went through all of that?
Timothy: Let me give you an example kind of how that happened and one thing that came to mind I was just looking at that. The person that was falsely accused through the hate crime that had gone on through the city of Enam Claw, was brought in before King County Courts. And everybody knows that if you plead innocent, the prosecutors use the law improperly and say, okay, since you won’t take our plea bargain and since you cry down to us and bow down to us. We’re going to up the charges. Well, that was never what the law was intended to do and the more you resisted the prosecutors, the more that you decided, no, I want my day in court, the more pressure and laws they put on you.
For instance, they go before Judge Lori K Smith and Seattle King County Court to increase the charges. I forget what the first one was. Let’s just say 10. I don’t remember what it is. They go before the judge, they go, your honor we know we want to up this to 22 counts or 25 counts or whatever it might be. And of course, the judge goes, well, she didn’t give all of that that’s a tactic they all use. But she gave them 99% of it said, oh yeah, fine. Well, the whole purpose of the law is if you come in to increase the charges on somebody, you’re supposed to show good evidence as to why you’re increasing those charges. Well, they never bring that in there they just go and we’d like to do this because yeah, we like to do it and then the judges go, okay. So, it’s an improper use of the law.
Now, that’s why you always have to kind of laugh inside when a judge says I’m following the law. Forget it. They milk and twist that law to bend it whichever way they want to go and if necessary, as we’re seeing in society right now, they just totally disregard it. That is kind of the nature of legalism and when we walk in such a tight fashion with our principles and our ideas and our concepts and go, that’s what I’m going to live and that was what makes me a Christian. What happens at the end of the day, we’re just following a Jesus that we’ve created into an idol and it we have a likable legalism. Let’s go to Mark chapter 2 verse 24, and anything you want to add to that, Jacob?
Jacob: I was just going to say that it’s not even really true legalism to say like, because they’re, you know well in the example the judge she’s not actually not even actually really following the law. She’s just doing whatever she wants. So, it’s even hard to say like oh she was being legalistic. She wasn’t legalistic at all. She’s actually not following the law and at best, well I guess you because the argument would be like well this law over here says one thing and this law over here says this other thing but I’m just going to pick and choose which laws. So, but I don’t know. It’s, but I don’t know. It’s really hard for like oh yeah, she was following the law. She wasn’t all. Anyways. Right.
Timothy: No. They disregard the law and then they just tack anything in. I don’t want to get too sidetracked on, but I was trying to give us a very human thing we see going on day to day where the law is just twisted and manipulated and now it’s just wholesale across our whole country. Here’s the measurement and we’re leading into now how to get out of our own principles and our own legalism and those kinds of things. In Mark chapter 2 verse 24, “The Pharisees said to him, “Look, why are you doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath?” So, you’re breaking this principle. You’re breaking this law. And he answered, “Have you never read what David did when he and his companions were hungry and in need?”
We see here, there’s a point Jesus make. First of all, you can’t, it’s impossible to read all of the Bible and make a set of concrete laws. If it were that clear and that easy, people would have done it. That’s why you find this complete mess out here because we’re missing the one thing that delivers us from the law and legalism. Reading on in Mark chapter 2 verse 26, “In the days of Abiathar, the high priest, he entered the house of God and ate the consecrated bread, which is law only for priests to eat”. And he also gave some to his companions. And here’s verse 27. Then he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man not man for the Sabbath”.
All laws cease to be good when they no longer benefit man. That’s why there’s so much corruption within police departments, prosecutors, and judges because they used the law to benefit themselves. They think when they look at us out there in that courtroom or look at us in society or King County prosecutors said, oh we’re happy to run you out of town. That was a net result. They used the word happy. Don’t come back me as some legal argument. They fully communicated and delivered on their promise to totally destroy us and that’s exactly what they did in the city of Enam Claw.
Alright, the law no longer is used for good. When they look at us out there, what did they see Jacob that we are made for their laws? And if we don’t obey their laws, then we’re in trouble. Unless you’re one of the selected. I laughed at the police officer, she had to the evidence was just so overwhelming fine for misconduct. But then she whitewashed and said, well, I’m sure he was doing the best he could. Really, any of us could actually stand before judge and go, well, your honor there’s so many laws, so much going on. I just did the best that I could and they go, hm, I see your point you’re free to and in fact, you did the right thing. Really, has anybody ever that you know of in a court of laws that yeah, here’s the law. Here’s what it says. Clearly, this was a setup but you know what? You tried to do your best so none of it really did kind of matter. Ever had that happen?
Jacob: I’m sure that happens all the time when the IRS takes someone to court for some dollar, they didn’t tell them that they earned, right? Oh, I was doing my best and they’re totally going to let you know. The answer is no. Of course, they never let you off the hook.
Timothy: No, you can’t even go on…
Jacob: Even if it’s true.
Timothy: Well, if it’s the best I could.
Jacob: Yeah. Well, but even if it’s true and the person was legitimately like, listen, your honor, I was blah blah blah. No, you will be the full extent of the law will be twisted against you.
Timothy: Alright, let’s press on. Matthew chapter 28 verse 18. I want us to, one of the first things I want us to grasp here is that obedience is not legalism in and of itself. That’s not the measurement of what the law is or what makes a principle bad or anything else. Obedience is there seems to be, isn’t there this concept out here that if you actually seek to obey a lot of, you’re in legalism. In Matthew chapter 28 verse 18, “Then Jesus came to them and said”. He’s about ready to be resurrected. “All authority in heaven on earth has been given to me. Therefore, go and make disciples of all nations. Baptizing them in the name of the father, the son, and the Holy Spirit”.
Now, let verse 20, “And teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you”. The reason that I’m so heavily persecuted is because I teach, we should obey everything. Not just one or two a full gospel, a whole gospel. Everything that’s in scripture should be fully obeyed. Isn’t that what Jesus Christ commanded those who teach to do, Jacob? Isn’t that what you’re supposed to do?
Timothy: And it’s only in the context of a life of obedience that we can claim the second part of this. And surely, I am with you always to the very end of the age. If I want to be sure that Jesus Christ is with me to the very end of the age, then I should be living a life of obedience and I should be teaching everybody else to obey everything else. And so, no matter where I am or who I meet or who I’m talking to, the goal is for all of us to discover more and more things that we can obey in Jesus Christ. So, it’s not obedience that makes us legalistic just because I say that oh, I believe in water baptism oh you’re being legalistic. That in and of itself does not prove legalism. Jacob, take us to Romans chapter 1 verse 5.
Jacob: Romans chapter 1 verse 5, “Through him and for his name’s sake, we received grace and apostleship to call people from among all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith”.
Timothy: So, there is rich obedience in Jesus Christ right, Jacob?
Timothy: It is an obedience that comes from faith. Before anybody calls me legalistic, then show me your obedience by faith. Indeed, if you’re going to be hypercritical about the things that I preach and demand that people obey, then come with me with obeying more than I do. I I’ll rejoice in it if it’s by faith, but that’s not usually what people mean when they call you legalistic. They mean for you to stop obeying. For instance, we’re on a debate about what’s long hair and short hair and whether you know man should have long or short hair. It’s very clear that it’s a sin for man to have long hair, right? I mean it’s spelled out, it’s very clear. Saying that and putting that out and demanding that doesn’t make me legalistic, because there’s obedience that comes from faith. That’s what we preach to obey everything.
Alright, let’s move into the scripture that will tell us exactly what legalism is and why we like it so much. Let’s go to Galatians chapter 3 verse 3. Paul writes, he says, “Are you so foolish? After beginning with the spirit are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?” It’s human effort that makes something dead law. It’s human effort which takes the faith out of principles and tight things that are in Jesus Christ. It’s human effort believing in Jesus. It’s human effort trying to pick up its cross. It’s human effort trying to deal with pride. Those things all in in tragedy and will not accomplish the new creation. Read that again for us Jacob. Galatians 3:3.
Jacob: “Are you so foolish? After beginning with the spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?”
Timothy: Why do you think we go for the human effort? Why is this so hard to get through our heads and our hearts, Jacob? Why do you think that is?
Jacob: Because human effort is you doing it. You can get all pumped up and psyched up and I mean that’s what, that’s how everybody lives their life. If you need more money, get a better job. If you think you’re fat, go work out. That’s the world’s answer to everything and I think then people just try to pull that into their Christianity. Oh, okay. I’m going to be a Christian. I’m going to do this and then you see result or you think you’ve obeyed it. So, then you’re self-righteous I don’t know. I’m kind of guessing, but I’m throwing it out there.
Timothy: What you’re really saying is we can control it. It’s powerless is what you’re pointing to. The best legalism I can possibly think of to relate to the most people is a New Year’s resolution. How many have even actually achieve our New Year’s resolutions? And if we can’t keep those, what makes us think we can live you know principles or Christian laws or certain things that are just sat down in a codified kind of way. We can’t do anything by human effort. We don’t have time to look at it today, but Jesus Christ is the flesh counts for nothing. Galatians 5:18. Let’s go to that because this is the only way we can get out of our legalism. Galatians 5:18. We’re also getting very warm and close to why people would rather have principles or golden calf type worships where you tack on the name of Jesus because we can control those things, it’ll never push us to feel beyond the sentence of death as Paul went through.
We’re in control and ultimately being crucified with Christ is losing total control. Principles and legalism allow us to remain in control. Galatians 5::18 says, and this is the escape clause to get out of legalism. This is really the measurement of whether somebody’s in legalism or not. They might agree with me actually on everything and they might even have an appearance of obeying it. But if they’re not doing it by this method then they’re under law. It might be likable legalism and I might agree with their legalism, but they are dead as they even seek to try and live or even if they do. Remember Paul was flawless in obeying the law so there are people that can fully obey it maybe even outshine those that quote unquote walk by the Holy Spirit. They may have all the rules tied in their life just perfect arranged, but it is human effort. It is them. It is not the grace of God and we’ll see why that can easily be spotted here pretty soon. But if you’re led by the spirit, remember Galatians 5:18, “You are not under the law”. So how do we escape from being out from under the law, Jacob?
Jacob: Be led by the spirit.
Timothy: Be led by the spirit. That’s the only way out. Now the Holy Spirit may come to you and go, don’t eat this or don’t do this ever again or don’t go there. But it’s the Holy Spirit moving you in that direction. If it’s that easy, Jacob, why don’t people do it?
Jacob: Because it’s not that easy.
Timothy: Correct. There’s a deceptive smiling jack Jesus out there. There’s the powerful delusion that God promised he would sin and mentioned in I believe Thessalonians. So, there’s this false Christianity full of principles, ideology, conservative values, 5 steps, 10 steps, 20 steps, this sign of that, how to have a Godly marriage outlined, all kinds of things. Everything is all arranged nothing. It looks nice and tidy with the name Jesus Christ written across it, because it allows us to escape one thing.
Let’s go to Galatians 3:4 to find out that one thing is that everybody’s trying to escape and get out of. And this is really that simple. Galatians 3:4. Go ahead and read that Jacob.
Jacob: “Have you suffered so much for nothing? If it really was for nothing?”
Timothy: “Have you suffered so much for nothing?” They were walking by the spirit and if you walk by the spirit, what are you experiencing?
Timothy: Suffering. They got tired of the suffering, because we’re not just talking about everyday suffering. Look, the whole universe is under discipline, right? Everything breaks down. Everything falls apart. Everything gets older. Everything decays and dies. Everything about our life is built with all kinds of frustrations built-in. It’s common to the whole world. But to follow the Holy Spirit is to follow into the sufferings of Jesus Christ. To follow into the sufferings that God has in mind for you personally that no man can communicate or give to you that it comes directly from the Holy Spirit and when you’re being crucified and both hands are out there with Jesus Christ and your feet are nailed down and you’re up there naked, you have lost total control. It is that kind of suffering that loses total control of one’s life hearts, values, goals, careers, you name it, just go down the line.
Everything that you are is put on the cross and lost for Jesus Christ. We sing about it but we don’t suffer with it. “Have you suffered so much for nothing?” It is the sufferings of Christ that overcome the law. It is the just let me give you an example, right? Remember we talked about that just because somebody obeys doesn’t mean they’re in legalism.
Timothy: Well, how am I to know whether they’re in legalism or not? Suppose they are. How could I ever discover that, Jacob?
Jacob: Well, only the spirit can really reveal that, otherwise you would just be using some other legalism to measure your legalism.
Timothy: That is correct. It creates a consistent hour by hour, second by second dependence upon the Holy Spirit to give you the mind of Christ. Most people go, well, I came to Jesus Christ, I had the mind of Christ. Oh really, where’s the cross? Where’s the suffering? Where’s the hating of your own life? Where’s living as though you’re not married? Where’s the hating and despising money? Where’s the giving up of everything? I can go down the line of all the things. Now the minute I start mentioning all those things, what are they going to say I’m being Jacob?
Jacob: Calm down. Calm down.
Timothy: Or they’ll throw other scriptures out. Well, you’re supposed to love your wife. Okay yeah, I know all that. We’re going to live the whole gospel. How do we get to a place where we can love our wife. What do we have to go through? We have to suffer. We have to suffer against the sinful nature. How do I get to a place where my giving to other people is really the Holy Ghost. I have to suffer against money. Go down the line. It’s suffering. So, my whole day from the time where before I get up to the time, I go to bed is participating in the sufferings of Christ that I might have the life of Christ. The only way that I know whether somebody’s in legalism or not is if I’m suffering against my own religious doctrines and opinions and concepts and principles and that’s the only time, I get the mind of Christ that alone the heart and the love to turn to somebody else and to go you’re in legalism and be able to point that out to them. Does that make a little bit of sense?
Jacob: Yes, I think a lot of people see the church today if you’re one saved always saved, you only have to suffer the one time. Because I mean some people could and I’m using air quotes start out, like they really do they’re like, wow, I’m a sinner.
Timothy: Well, the Galatians Jesus.
Jacob: My life’s a mess. All the things, a lot of people. And so, there’s this suffering moment. I think, they would be like man this is Lord I can’t do this; I need you. So, they have this one suffering moment but then the church says, oh, that’s the only suffering moment you need you are now saved and then anything any other suffering moments that’s legalism. Because you don’t need those because you are saved. Versus, just continuing that. A lot of people may, I don’t know. You know what I mean? First at the very very very beginning come to Jesus there’s that initial little bit of maybe tiny suffering and then they stop and they never keep going.
Timothy: And to add to that a lot of people stop them from suffering because they’re under conviction.
Jacob: Oh yeah, sure. A lot of people then yeah, just going to excuse it away.
Timothy: Yep. And actually, you don’t know how correct you are. Remember one place that I was preaching at talking about the sufferings of Christ and the conviction the things that we discuss on the podcast. And they turn to me, oh you mean the Dark Night of the Soul. And I’d never heard that before and I go Dark Night of the Soul.
Timothy: Began to dawn on me later. That’s right. They go through this for one night and they think they’re there.
Timothy: This is it. This is suffering with Jesus Christ on a daily or hourly basis. So, they’ve had taste of it exactly what you’re saying. They even have a doctrine principle. It’s called The Dark Night of the Soul. My guess is you can probably go on the internet and type that in and there’s probably books on that. So, you get a whole night of suffering in all of eternity. You don’t never mind walking with Jesus. Alright, let me give you an example of what I’m talking about here of how the suffering and the joys and all that kind of come together.
Go to first Thessalonians chapter 5 verse 16 and I’ll let you read that one, Jacob. This one you can buy online, bookstores, people print it off, coloring books, you go down the line, it’s not too long passage but everybody likes. I like it. We all like it. Go and read it to us Jacob.
Jacob: First Thessalonians chapter 5 verse 16. “Be joyful always”.
Timothy: You want to be joyful always?
Timothy: I wish I was joyful always, right? No matter what’s going on. Everybody wants this. That’s a likable legalism. If I set that on the refrigerator or put that in my car or whatever. Isn’t that a likable legalism?
Timothy: Well, let’s add the cross into this now. Let’s go to second Corinthians chapter 12 verse 10, and I’ll read that. Second Corinthians chapter 12 verse 10. Let’s look then at how I get to be joyful always. You go to God and you go, okay God, yeah. I want to be joyful. I was really frustrated the other day working on my computer, wasn’t doing what it need to do or I was building this over here and it just wouldn’t come together and I’m sorry. I just really wasn’t joyful like I need to do. Now, I’m not telling you there aren’t legit times you go back before God and confess all this sin. I’m looking at this in a superficial kind of legalistical likable thing that you can control and we want to always give up the things we’re frustrated about in life but that doesn’t necessarily mean we’re surrendering or really being broken of the sin or that somehow God’s never going to put that to the test. That makes sense in all that, Jacob?
Timothy: Alright, here’s what Paul says in relationship to being joyful always. Second Corinthians chapter 12 verse 10, and I am sure Jacob, you’ve heard this quoted in churches everywhere you go.
Jacob: Right. Maybe the very last part.
Timothy: Okay. Alright, that’s true. Here we go. “That is why for Christ’s sake. You see no longer self in the focus for Christ’s sake. “I delight in weaknesses”. So, when he says, “Be joyful always”. Let’s just put that in there. “I am being joyful always in weakness”. I delight in weaknesses. It’s his happy thing. It’s his happy place, right? “I delight, Paul says in insults”. Really. You all the Christians you’ve met are like I was insulted this week. I mean they don’t even get that. I’m sure there are those self-righteous groups out there that tack that in there. But as a whole do you find people say ah man, I had a really good week in the Lord. I was in weakness and I was being insulted. Oh, and the hardships that I faced. Oh, they were so grand. Do you hear him saying that?
Timothy: Let me read it because I’m dragging this out. “That is why, for Christ’s sake, I delighted weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties for when I am then I’m strong”. You’re right. Everybody quotes that last part, right? “For when I’m weak, then I’m strong”. That’s a likable legalism, right? That way, no matter what stage we’re in or what’s going on that we feel fearful about, we can always be sure, oh Christ is with me, right?
Timothy: Versus somebody embracing the sufferings of Jesus Christ. “That is why, for Christ’s sake, I delight in weaknesses. I delight in insults. I delight in hardships and in persecutions and in difficulties from when I am weak that I’m strong”. That’s what it means to say to be joyful always. Now, can people be self-righteous in all of those things? Of course, it happens all the time but that doesn’t negate the fact that we’re supposed to live it. That we’re supposed to actually supposed to obey it, and I’m trying to show us that only way out from underneath the law is to embrace the sufferings of Jesus Christ as the Holy Spirit leads.
Let’s finish up with Romans chapter 8 verse 12. A lot of people have, well feeling like they’re just not gaining and overcoming sin. And that’s because in human effort they’ve laid down legalism, principles, laws, or I’m going to do this or I’m going to do that. The man who lives by these things will do them. We have all these things we are going to do. It’s not a reliance upon the Holy Spirit. Because only the Holy Spirit can give us the new creation that can overcome our sins. Romans 8:12. “Therefore, brothers we have an obligation. But it is not to the sinful nature to live according to it”.
Most people don’t even have a concept of well that’s my sinful nature and this is the new creation. I know they do in the sense of, well we shouldn’t do crack and we shouldn’t be an alcoholic and we shouldn’t do. Obviously, the big things everybody can spot. But in terms of you went to the average person in Jesus Christ and said, okay, what’s this over here of your sinful nature versus what the Holy Spirit is working and trying to put to death. Would they be able to give you this very clear line like here’s the cross and here’s of sins and here’s the new life, Jacob?
Timothy: Romans 8:13, “For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die”. If we lay down principles, if we lay down likable legalism, we will die. It is not by human effort that we can follow Jesus Christ and we have to be convinced of that and we have to be crucified with Christ. And let me warn you, if you’re not obeying the whole gospel, you’re in grave danger of losing it all. Romans 8:13, “But if by the spirit”, underline it, highlight it, do whatever. You better yet go experience it. Get before God and say, okay God, all of this is surrender. Start plowing ground. Teach me things. You work it. I want to lose total control. And then don’t be shocked if your flesh screams, if you have some of the worst days of your life. But if by the spirit you put to death. You can’t just suffer and you just can’t keep recycling.
I’ve seen a lot of people do this. Okay, yeah, you’re right. I see what you’re saying and so they try to do it but they never actually go die. They never become different. So, they’re always in the process of being crucified. They’re always in the process of whining and crawling and trying to overcome it or better yet, the Holy Spirit comes along with the cross of Jesus Christ, tries to put you up on the cross. You don’t like it so you start laying down all these principles, these ideas, and this likable legalism and then you’re back and forth. You’re on the cross like playing this law game with you. If eventually, you’re going to get tired of the cross and you’re going to come down or you’re going to surrender on the cross and go, all of that legalism is worthless. All of that likable stuff that I like. I hate and despise. Now, lead me up on the cross and give me the new creation in your timing, in your way that you want to do it.
There’re one or two options. Most of what I’ve experienced are people get started with this. They get up on the cross. They allow God to bring the sufferings and then they decide, no, I don’t want to suffer anymore and so you get down off that cross and if you go back to some principles, you go there normally you turn to persecute those that are still trying to follow Jesus Christ by being crucified with him. Thoughts, Jacob?
Jacob: Yeah. Well, like you just mentioned, the two, well, the two thieves on the cross because you said, even if you are up on the cross, then you try to, you know, the second thief starts yelling at the first thief, right? Or however which way it is. You know what I’m talking about? When the two thieves are up there and so you don’t like it. So, even if you are on the cross and you’re experiencing suffering then you don’t like us, you just start mocking everybody else.
Timothy: And see principles don’t make us dizzy and weak. Principles don’t confuse us. Principles don’t give us a sense of helplessness. It’s the other way around. The principles allow us to keep our lives. Well, the same time claiming to follow Jesus Christ. So, it’s by the spirit. The nails are going to go in everywhere you’ve been whipped. I mean it’s not just being crucified in that sense. It’s the whole process to get there, right? And I don’t have time to go in that today and I think we did a little bit in our first shows.
Let’s read on verse or chapter 8 verse 14 of Romans. “Because those who are led by the spirit of God are sons of God”. You have to be led where you don’t want to go. That scripture’s very clear on that. If you’re going to walk as Jesus walked, you’re going to go where you don’t want to go. You want to do other things today. Go ahead.
Jacob: Well, no that’s what remember Jesus told that to Peter. Of course, that was in, it says in reference to how he was going to die. But you full on you will be led where you do not want to go. That’s what it says. That’s what Jesus said.
Timothy: That is correct. That’s correct. In fact, Galatians said that, “You follow the spirit you no longer do what you want to do”. This is what makes us sons and daughters. But people don’t want to suffer. They still want to lead their own life and they might call themselves Christian, they’re following along but they’re not disciples. They’re not really being led by the spirit. They’re not suffering with Christ. Romans 8:15, you hear this quoted all the time. “For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you receive the spirit of sonship and by him we cry, “Abba, Father”.
So, everybody claims that one. In fact, usually when I come in with, look, you got to be crucified with Christ. You got to pick up your cross. You got to do all of these things and go, oh, you’re making me a slave to fear again and I’m free in Jesus. They actually use that scripture Romans 8:15 to get out of the legalism that they like. That’s what’s so sad about it. It’s a lie. Go to Romans 8:17 and I’m sure we need to wrap it up at this point. This is the whole thing that will get us out of our likable legalism and becoming true disciples of Jesus Christ. You read it Jacob and then I’m going to read it again and then we’ll wrap it up.
Jacob: “Now, if we are children, then we are heirs, heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ. If indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory”.
Timothy: Do we not see right there in that passage, be joyful always, I delight in insults weaknesses and sufferings? Yes, we see it right there now if we are children then we are heirs. Heirs of God and co heirs with Christ if and not just if indeed to an abundance. If indeed we share in his sufferings not our sufferings, not our sufferings because of foolishness or our political affiliation or our legalistic ideas or the things that we like, but his suffering. Actually, has to be when you get up in the morning you’re going, okay God, what are the Sufferings in Jesus that you want to pour into my life today? If indeed you should be able to talk about it. If indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory. You do not get his glory by likable legalism. Jacobs, go ahead and take us out of here.
Outro: This has been the Consider Podcast at www.consider.info where yesterday’s folly is today’s madness. In the beginning, the unrepentant sinners words are folly. At the end, they are wicked madness. Ecclesiastes 10:13. Judgement begins with the house of God. Therefore, let everyone who loves the Lord with an undying love pick up their cross and walk the talk. As Peter the wrote. “Therefore, prepare your minds for action. Be self-controlled”. First Peter 1:13-14. The Considered Podcast, examining today’s events and Paulorrow’s realities. www.consider.info.
The Consider Podcast
Examining today’s wisdom, folly and madness